Episode 177 – Friends Should Let Friends Buy Microsoft 365 Business Premium

Episode 177 – Friends Should Let Friends Buy Microsoft 365 Business Premium

In Episode 177, Ben and Scott break down the changes in Microsoft 365 Business Premium and how it compares against Office 365 Enterprise Plans including the Office 365 E3.

- [Ben] Welcome to episode 177 of the Microsoft cloud IT pro podcast recorded live on May eight 2020. This is a show about Microsoft 365 with Azure from the perspective of IT pros and its users where we discuss the topic or recent news and how it relates to you. In this episode, Scott and Ben take a more detailed look at the recently renamed and improved Microsoft 365 business plans and discuss with these updates, should friends now let friends by business? Everybody now his kids and dogs and all sorts of things or people or animals making noise in the background to their meetings.

- [Scot] Yeah, I think we're all getting better at it though, so maybe for those who haven't been doing the remote thing now that they've had a couple of weeks to not necessarily settle in to it, but experience it and recognizing that for some of us it's going to be coming for a long time. I think especially for technology companies, I mean Facebook announced that through the rest of 2020 just go for it.

- [Ben] Really, I missed that.

- [Scot] Yep, yep, go forth and do it. Amazon is at least October, Microsoft still has their campus effectively shut down. So it's gonna be a thing for a while and I think for us, like in this segment and this area, we're going to continue to experience it.

- [Ben] Yeah, although to be fair, I've been experiencing it for like 10 years now.

- [Scot] Yes.

- [Ben] My kids literally don't know what it's like for me to have to leave the house for work. They get upset when I have to leave to go to work. They're like, "Why do you have to leave?" Some people do these everyday guys.

- [Scot] You've done it again.

- [Ben] Yes. They just don't know what it's like to have daddy actually leave every day to go to work.

- [Scot] Man, you know, they'll have to figure out their own lives at some point, you know, let them grow up in flutter and all those things.

- [Ben] What it is. Yes, they'll realize it. Maybe, who knows? Maybe everybody will work for home for the rest of their lives. I think you are gonna see a lot more people or companies staying open to remote work 'cause this is forced everybody to figure it out. I know there's some people I've talked to that they're like, "This just does not work for us. "We're not as productive." All of that, we need to be at the same spot. But I think there's a lot of companies that are also realizing, "Hey, this isn't as unproductive "or as bad or as prohibitive to our daily activities "as we thought it was."

- [Scot] Yeah, interestingly, I also think lots of folks are gonna have to figure out the burnout factor and really starting it and mass in this time is a different thing then all of a sudden a company you phasing into remote work or just easing your way into it and figuring out what that balance is for, what is productivity at home? I think a lot of folks who are potentially looking at their teams and saying, "Well, we can't work remotely," oh, that's not attitude 'cause you're gonna have to figure out a way to do that in a lot of cases. And also by saying you can't, you're automatically throwing up a barrier to being successful there, but being able to align those times and boundaries between work and home life and recognizing that, yeah, this other thing is going on in the outside.

- [Ben] Yeah, it's interesting and there's definitely a difference between being forced to work remotely and like you said, having that gradual roll and have it being an option. I would say there's more challenges with the way it happened this way. Well, it has opened up a lot of eyes. It also is a lot more challenging when you do it this way. Than if it, like you said, it's a gradual roll in a gradual rollout, you start with options and just do it a little bit at a time. Doing it this way definitely has brought a whole set of challenges.

- [Scot] So one of the little things that gets me, is I have an established place to do work every day. I have my desk, it has my monitors, there's a nice warning ring on the desk where my coffee cup goes. There's a place for the keyboard, a place for my mouse, microphone, all those kinds of things. And my wife potentially transitioning to a remote role as a teacher. She's kind of settled on just one or two different places in the house to work in. And I've offered, like last night she's been working on an extra class and trying to do all these recordings for her students and things so she can put them up. So she came into the office and was sitting at my desk, which I'm normally on a laptop, but then it's just in clamshell plugged into all these monitors and she brought her laptop stand-in. She brought her keyboard in, brought her mouse in and she sat, stood up, it's a standing desk. So she stood up at the desk and I said all we gotta do is pull that little USBC cable out of my laptop and we can put it into yours and you could at least have the keyboard. And if you don't want the keyboard, keep using your keyboard 'cause that's all Bluetooth, that's fine. I get, you don't wanna use somebody else's mouse 'cause everybody's kind of partial to things like that, but you can totally use your keyboard and just all of a sudden have these screens like go ahead, have the 34-inch monitor and things like that. And she looked at me like I was crazy just like I couldn't be productive like that. I'm like, I couldn't be productive on a single screen.

- [Ben] Yeah, it's everybody figuring out how they work best. As IT professionals in the cloud era, sometimes it feels like we don't speak the same language as the rest of the organization. So when stakeholders from finance or other departments start asking about a specific project or Teams Azure costs, they don't always realize how much work is involved in obtaining that information. Sifting through cluttered CSVs and complex massive metadata in order to manually create custom views and reports. It's a real headache. On top of helping you understand and reduce your organization's overall Azure spend. ShareGate Overcast lets you group resources into meaningful cost hubs and map them to real-world business scenarios. This way you can track costs in the way that makes most sense with your corporate structure, whether it's by product, business unit, team or otherwise. It's a flexible, intuitive and business-friendly way of tracking Azure infrastructure costs and it's only available in ShareGate Overcast. Find out more on sharegate.com/itpro. So we have an interesting topic. This topic today, speaking of working came up probably about a month ago now. I think this has been out and I saw some articles about it and we kind of put some notes together and were like, "We should record this at some point in time." So today is your lucky day Scot.

- [Scot] Every day is my lucky day when I get to talk to you, Ben.

- [Ben] Aw, that's so sweet. That was a little weird. Now you got me all thrown off. It's been a long week. So we recorded an episode a while back. I don't even remember which episode it was where we said, "Friends do not let friends by business "when it comes to office 365," and we had a whole list of reasons why. About a month ago, Microsoft made some announcements that we talked about, about renaming the business 365 skews. And as a part of that, one of the, I would say new skews with some added features to it is you can now get Microsoft 365 business premium, which includes Windows 10, office 365... well no, that'd be Microsoft 365 business standard, I believe it's one of the Microsoft 365 business skews as well as essentially EMS. You're getting Azure active directory premium. So you get all three of those for $20 a month, which is the exact same price as a office 365 E3 plan. So a lot of people have been asking, "Why would I buy office 365 E3 for $20 "when I can get Microsoft 365 E3 "or Microsoft 365 business premium for $20 a month?" Why would I not get that one with all these other features, Windows 10, Azure active directory premium, it's essentially all the EMS stuff. Although we're gonna talk about, it's not all of that. So do friends still not let friends buy business or have they changed this enough that Microsoft 365 business premium is actually a very solid option now where you're not quite as handicapped as maybe you were before. So we figured we'd dive in, discuss that. There was also a blog article that came out around securing remote work, tying into our intro to using Microsoft 365 business premium.

- [Scot] And then that article really piggybacks and the concepts there piggyback kinda whole cons the licensing construct where they added Azure AD premium P1 to those licenses. So having access to conditional access I think ups the game and changes it a little bit. 'Cause that's one of those differentiators between those two skews.

- [Ben] It really is. And before it was always an Add-on and now all of a sudden it has come bundled. So we decided this episode, we're just gonna talk about Microsoft 365 business premium and where it actually does make some sense now. I think my opinion, we'll see what Scott thinks. As well as scenarios where frankly it still doesn't make sense even though there's more features to it as opposed to like the E3 plan.

- [Scot] Yeah, let's get into it.

- [Ben] Alright, so where do you wanna kick it off? How do you wanna kick it off?

- [Scot] So I tend to look at it from one of those clear differentiators between those business plans and the enterprise plans is the number of users that you can bring into those skews. So having a hard cap on the number of users, like if I was gonna build out a decision tree to say, should I even look at this product, is it for me? How many people do I need to license? Is it more than or less than 300? Because if I have more than 300 users who are gonna require these features, then it's still not the thing for me. I'm gonna have to go build a licensing bundle or hopefully find a suite of products like any three or any five that has it all built-in or I can do the base bundle, the SKU pack plus the Add-ons, things like that. So like I said, if I was gonna build the tree, that's where I would start, number of users regardless of functionality they need or anything else. That's your biggest probably upfront question that you need to answer.

- [Ben] Yup, I would agree. That's always my first question and well there are some feature differences that is that hard line in the sand of which way do you go, is gonna be your user account. If you're less than 300 you have a choice to make. If you're more than 300 there's like not a decision there. You just have to go with one of the E plans.

- [Scot] Yeah, you're just gonna go another way. And then from there, you might try to rationalize down cost or Add-ons or things like that as you go ahead and standing up the service. And I think what you could do is then maybe you could get into that feature comparison of if I'm into the whole office 365 E3 versus Microsoft 365 business premium. Then you might wanna decide what features are important to bring over for you along the way.

- [Ben] Yup and I think one of those, and I mentioned EMS at the beginning and that is not, it is just Azure AD premium plan one that's included in business. So for me, I think that's the next decision tree probably that plays into effect, although there's a couple here but one of his is going to be, do I need that full EMS suite where it comes to like the mobile application management, the Intune with the mobile device management, some of those extra features that are in the EMS suite that are licensed as EMS but aren't licensed as part of Azure AD premium P1 because Microsoft 365 business premium is only going to be Azure AD P1, not the rest of those EMS features that are included in office 365 E3 or in Microsoft 365 E3. I think that's probably the next biggest one in my opinion. I say probably, because it could come down to a few other ones.

- [Scot] So now that comes to another weird decision of do you need full-blown MDM? Like do you need full Intune for your devices? Like what does that look like for you? Or are you doing like Knox or something like that today or AirWatch and you wanna look to going to Intune or do you need MDM light and can you leverage built-in MDM capabilities? So there's always... 'Cause that exists as well. There's full-blown MDM with Intune and then there's, it used to be what they used to call it, it used to be called office 365 mobile device management. But now I think it's all just mobile device management for Microsoft 365 which is inclusive of some of the office 365 stuff where you get MDM light in it today anyway until potentially they go ahead and take that away.

- [Ben] Yeah.

- [Scot] So I think that's something to think about there too. 'Cause especially if I'm just doing maybe, I've always thought MDMs is a weird conversation to have, do you need MDM or you do you need MAM? So is it the data in the application that's really important or is it the whole device and kind of the surrounding ecosystem that's important. And certainly, if you're looking potentially, I think at that small business segment, like if you're looking at the 365 business premium, you're less than 300 users, I would bet for lots of folks that not having access to Intune isn't the end of the world 'cause I can still do my conditional access 'cause P1 is giving me access to that in Azure AD premium P1 and I can still do device management light and particularly application management. So being able to still have those application controls where I can have you come in, I can't ensure that you can only sign in to your device with your corporate identity. But I can make sure that you can only sign into outlook with your corporate identity and when you sign into outlook that you can't take any screenshots and that you can't be out on a jailbroken device. So have I protected your data there or not? It's always weird line to walk. But I think if you're a smaller business, like if you're in that 365 business premium skew, you're probably not looking for full-blown MDM anyway. You might want the features, but I guarantee you don't want the operational overhead of keeping it up.

- [Ben] Right, although you can't do my licensing matrix is failing me. You can't do the mobile application management with just Azure AD premium P one can you, isn't that still part of EMS? You can do conditional access, but not actually like the mayhem, selective wipe stuff or don't allow copy and paste between applications, that type of stuff.

- [Scot] Right, yeah. I think you're right there, but if I can stop you from logging into the app if you're on a, like an unregistered device or whatever it is.

- [Ben] Right, that goes a long ways.

- [Scot] You've got to weigh that out and decide where that's important to you organizationally.

- [Ben] Yeah, so yeah, figuring out where that is and truth be told, even the mobile application management versus the mobile device management, I'm shocked how many people like conditional access in some of that mobile application management. If you do that right, you really don't need a lot of the mobile device management as much. Even bigger companies, I'm surprised how many people just do the MAM and it's way easier to manage. So another one that comes out, especially if you're a small business when you are weighing Microsoft 365 business premium versus office 365 is Windows 10 pro and licensing that. If you've already bought a bunch of faxed copies of Windows 10 pro, you don't care about licensing Windows 10 pro, the office 365 E3 is gonna be fine. But one of the nice things about business is it does have a Windows 10 pro license. So if you want to do all of your cloud licensing, if you want to even look a little bit at like I think the Windows virtual desktop is included now in the Microsoft 365 business premium. if you be... Tripping over my own words that, but as well as, and this was when I learned the other day, is the licensing office applications, so Word, Excel, PowerPoint, desktop on a virtual desktop interface. I can't remember. Is that the CSA license or SCA? The shared, essentially the shared application license.

- [Scot] Yeah, whatever acronym they have going for it these days.

- [Ben] Yes, that is the only business plan that's included in this that Microsoft 365 business premium. So even though office applications are included in some of the lower business 365 plans, the only one that includes the shared application access is gonna be that business premium. So if you are looking for that virtual desktop interface, maybe looking at Windows virtual desktop, you want the shared applications, there's a lot of that. The Windows 10 for even desktop devices, all of that's in that Microsoft 365 business plan too. So if you need all of that, you're under 300 users, you don't need EMS. In that scenario Microsoft 365 business is a solid option as well.

- [Scot] Yeah, it starts to become more and more compelling. It does.

- [Ben] And I have one more compelling feature that they snuck out there. You can now add voice. This also used to be a big one. I heard this be a differentiating factor for one of my clients at one point in time was you used to not be able to do Skype or Cloud Voice, the whole cloud PBX, PSTN calling, all of that on a business plan that was only available on enterprise plans. Voice can now be added to Microsoft 365 business premium and I believe even some of the lower skews. So if you are a small business and you want to do voice calling, you can just license business plans as well now and not worry about the enterprise plan just to get voice.

- [Scot] So is that voice plan, is that different than business voice? 'Cause they've renamed all this stuff, right? Where say you have Microsoft 365 business voice, which is that's in the office 365 E3, the F1, it's in the Microsoft 365 E3, the Microsoft 365 business but not business premium.

- [Ben] I did not realize they renamed that one.

- [Scot] Well, I will make sure to put the article to, what is Microsoft 365 business voice.

- [Ben] Business voice that is, I was just looking up phone system, call trends for multilevel auto attendance call queues includes, okay, so Microsoft 365 business voice, they combined two plans into this. Microsoft 365 business voices is $20 a user a month. What you used to have, and you may still have, you may still be able to buy these separately because certain plans include certain features already. Cloud Voice, which was all of the auto-attendant, call queues, call transfer, voicemail, all of that. That was an $8 a month Add-on to just get the Cloud Voice functionality and then for $12 a user a month, you got those domestic calling plans or you could do domestic and international for 24 but it started $12 a month domestic calling plans. So you have your $12 a month for domestic calling. You had $8 a month for Cloud Voice. to get the features and the PSTN calling they took these and Microsoft 365 business voice now combines is $20 a month, which is your eight and 12 for your Cloud Voice and your domestic calling. And it includes both of those in one bundle.

- [Scot] Not confusing at all.

- [Ben] Not confusing at all. And I'd have to look into this 'cause I again, I missed this one. But when you get into the office 365 set of things like your Microsoft 365 E5 in your office 365 E5 already include the $8 a month Cloud Voice Add-on or all those entitlements. So if you're on one of those business E5 plans, you only need to license domestic calling.

- [Scot] Yeah, it's getting weird. And now you can't even search for Cloud Voice anymore 'cause it's all been subsumed by business voice. So you gotta be like, go search for the old phone system stuff and then hope you land on the right article. Although, but it's weird.

- [Ben] So are you looking at the business voice article?

- [Scot] Yeah.

- [Ben] It says down at the bottom, business voice requires the Microsoft 365 and that includes Teams. It's an Add-on subscription for up to 300 users that cannot be used standalone business voice, blah blah, blah, blah.

- [Scot] Yeah, yeah. It still aligns to those licensing limitations with those skews.

- [Ben] It aligns to the small business ones. But that means Cloud Voice should still exist for those enterprise skews.

- [Scot] Good luck figuring out where that's all written down now.

- [Ben] So as you're going, this is what happens when we stumble across random articles in the middle of the podcast. Oh, see options for enterprise. There's a little link. It's hiding. Voice and video calling with Microsoft Teams.

- [Scot] Yeah, it takes you into all the Teams stuff and 'cause now calling plans and all the documentation for phone system and calling plans and set up falls under Teams.

- [Ben] Oh, it's phone system. So it's not Cloud Voice. So if you're looking for the enterprise stuff, look for phone system for $8 and then calling plan pricing for your domestic and international. Outlook ends are a great way to improve productivity and save time in the workplace. And Sperry software has all the Add-ons you'll ever need. The save as PDF Add-on is a best seller. And it is great for project backups, legal discovery, and more. This add-in saves the email and attachments as PDF files. It's easy to download, easy to install, and Sperry software's unparalleled customer service is always ready to help. Download a free trial at sperrysoftware.com. S-P-E-R-R-Y S-O-F-T-W-A-R-E.com. and see for yourself how great save as PDF is. Listeners can get 20% off their order today by entering the code "cloudIT." That's cloud IT, C-L-O-U-D I-T, all one word at checkout. Sperry software work in email, not on email. So we all got that straight now, right? Microsoft 365 phones system is only for business plans. Office 365 requires a phone system and a calling plan. Did I say that right?

- No.

- No.

- [Scot] 365 business voice?

- [Ben] Yes.

- [Scot] Is for Microsoft--

- [Ben] Only for business plans.

- [Scot] Microsoft 365 business plans. Well, but not just the business plans 'cause you can also do it with office 365 E3s and F1s. So thanks Microsoft. Even though it still has that licensing limitation at 300 I don't know how that works.

- [Ben] That's bizarre.

- [Scot] It's clearly called out in the licensing. If your organization has fewer than 300 people and you have office 365 E1, E3 or F1, you can also do it. You can also do it with the A1 and A3. So you can do it with the education plans.

- [Ben] Which I mean it does kind of make sense because reality is the pricing didn't change. If you go buy that for $20 or if you go buy phone system and domestic calling for $8 and $12 respectively. Either way, at least they kept that consistent. You're gonna be paying $20 a month to add some type of phone capability and to anything lower than a business or enterprise E5 plan.

- [Scot] There you go. The documentation might not be consistent, but the pricing is, oh, wow.

- [Ben] So that is another, again, that used to be a differentiator between the two and a reason not to go buy business is if you ever looking at phone systems now or shortly, what was the date on that? You can put them onto both. I know they announced it was coming. I think it's already there.

- [Scot] I mean it looks like it's already there. I haven't spot up a business tenant in a couple of weeks, but maybe that'll be the thing to do. We'll go spin up a business tenant and see if it can be added.

- [Ben] Yeah, it looks like it's all there. The data I saw was around pricing. So pricing includes or pricing includes required communication and taxes and fees until June 30th, 2021. I don't know if that means your prices are gonna go up a little bit for taxes and fees on June 30th. I don't know if there's something that's being waived because of COVID right now and that's why those prices include taxes and fees until June 30th. Not exactly sure what's going on there. But yeah, June 30th will appear as a separate charge only in the US starting on June 30th. So there's some goofiness going on there, but that shouldn't be too much.

- [Scot] Alright, cool. So there's some things that are similar and there's some things that are more than similar. Almost to the same between them. But when you're going through that rationalization exercise of saying, so I've got less users, I'm within that 300 boundary. So now I've gone down this difficult road of trying figure it out. What is business actually missing when you compare it to like an office 365 E3?

- [Ben] So there are a couple things that it is missing in terms of just like functional specs when it comes to certain services. So exchange online is one of the biggest ones that you're gonna notice some differences. An argument could be made whether you actually need this or not, but smaller exchange mailboxes. So your business 365 plans are essentially running exchange online plan one where your enterprise plans are gonna be exchange online plan two at least when it comes to like E3 and E5. So that means that you have a 50 gig mailbox instead of a hundred gig mailbox for business premium versus office 365 E3. However, archiving the business 365 premium does appear to include like a 100-gigabyte expanding archive. So as you archive it'll grow. So there could be an argument made for why do we need a hundred gigabytes if I can just archive everything, 50 gigabytes and archiving more frequently is probably adequate.

- [Scot] That depends on how you access that mailbox and what it looks like. Like do I access that from mobile devices? How hard is it for me to work with the archive from mobile? Like there're weird limitations there and then I believe you probably know better than me, but the office 365 enterprise archives, those are still billed as unlimited archives, right? Ever-expanding?

- [Ben] Yeah. But they all start. So I think there's similar to the business ones because they all start at a hundred gigs and the business premium ones based on what I think I saw was those ever expand to, it's still an unlimited.

- [Scot] Gotcha.

- [Ben] At least up at that premium level. And then some of the e-Discovery. So when I started looking through like a feature by feature breakdown using service descriptions, O365sd.com.

- [Scot] There actually is a great one out there 'cause they do have, so one of the things they didn't used to do was have to plan options or it was never always a great way to do it to get the business plans and the E-plans all together on the same page.

- [Ben] Yep.

- [Scot] And now they do. So again, this is another link I'll put in the show notes. You can go to office 365 plan options and it breaks down the whole family. So it's inclusive of everything in business. So Microsoft 365 business basic, apps for business, business standard and then all of the office 365 enterprise as well as education skews, which is super awesome to see.

- [Ben] Perfect, yeah. So things like advanced e-Discovery are only in those enterprise plans. There's probably some small businesses that would use it. Do you think like lawyer, some law firms that are probably, there's a lot of law firms that are probably less than 300 users that may have a need for advanced e-Discovery just due to their line of work. Some of that stuff isn't going to get included with your office 365 plans or your business premium plans, so I can't remember. The other one I was gonna look at was... Do you have that chart in front of you? Data loss prevention is one that also tends to... No, that when I did look at. That one as included in everything. Data lost prevention is, e-Discovery is not or advanced e-Discovery. The business premium plans do include in-place holds and in place e-Discovery just not some of those more advanced features. So really go take a look at those service descriptions. Don't look at this at a super high level, but.

- [Scot] Yeah, you have to avoid the marketing and the pricing pages and do all of that at a lower level. They actually used to provide Excel spreadsheets for these where you could do kind of pivots and filters and sorts. I've always found it helpful to go and make my own for those. So it is possible to still copy and paste the tables and things just directly out of the HTML or the markdown, the on rendered markdown that's so free and get hub and put that into Excel and be able to do those pivots based on how you want them. 'Cause there's gonna be a lot of noise in there that you can just kind of cut the noise out and get it to be what it needs to be.

- [Ben] Right, so the first thing I do, I copy and paste all those into Excel and I create a table and then I filter on the skew I'm looking for all the nos. So just show me everything under business premium that is set to "no" because that means that's not included and then it makes it a lot easier to start from there when you're comparing what's a no in that column versus a yes in one of my enterprise columns.

- [Scot] Yup, just go ahead and delete the skews you don't want and you get to where you need to be.

- [Ben] Exactly.

- [Scot] It's a little rough, right? I think you're in a potentially a little bit of a handicap position may be coming in as a small business and somebody like you or I saying, well your best bet is to copy and paste from HTML site into a spreadsheet and figure it out. Versus being an enterprise where you know if you're buying thousands and thousands of seats, you're gonna have a salesperson at Microsoft who's very keen to sell those to you and they're helping you figure that out.

- [Ben] Or you have a finance guy that really likes Excel and if you say, "Hey, "can you go build me some really fancy Excel spreadsheet?" They'll like go hide in their cubicle for hours to create an incredible Excel spreadsheet for you.

- [Scot] No more cubicle Ben.

- [Ben] No offense to anybody that's in finance and really likes their Excel spreadsheets. But yeah, we didn't even get into our last blog article about securing everything. Your practical guide to securing remote work.

- [Scot] I think securities, maybe that's when we can hold off on and have as a conversation at another time 'cause it does, I think it goes out a little outside the boundaries of what I put it in there about what we were originally gonna talk about. 'Cause we'll get into kind of specifics thereof some things that you may or may not want to consider turning on. Like what are must-haves versus not must-haves. If you have access to these types of features. Like if you've got the licensing, you're definitely gonna want to turn some things on. Like full stop, they should just be on by default. Microsoft might not turn them on by default for you but they'll certainly be very vocal and I think you and I would be too about, "Hey let's light up the things that really makes sense."

- [Ben] Yes, absolutely. So, to be continued next week 'cause we don't have a topic pick for next week yet, we will talk about securing in which features you should turn on and off and how you can take advantage of these new skews. And the security offerings they're in.

- [Scot] Yeah, perfect, absolutely.

- [Ben] All right, well, let us go enjoy the rest of the sunny day from the confines of our house.

- [Scot] Yes, this is the way.

- [Ben] We will talk to you next week about that security article.

- [Scot] Thanks, Ben.

- [Ben] All right, thanks, Scott. If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave us a five-star rating in iTunes. It helps to get the word out so more IT pros can learn about office 365 and Azure. If you have any questions you want us to address on the show or feedback about the show, feel free to reach out via our website, Twitter or Facebook. Thanks again for listening and have a great day.

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Episode 173 – Zoom, Teams, and Slack, Oh My!

Episode 173 – Zoom, Teams, and Slack, Oh My!

In Episode 173, Ben and Scott talk about their experiences with online meeting platforms such as Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and Slack as all of us continue to cope with remote work.

- Welcome to Episode 173 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro podcast recorded live on April 9, 2020. This is a show about Microsoft 365 and Azure from the perspective of IT pros and end users, where we discuss a topic or recent news and how it relates to you. In this episode, with the recent uptake in usage of Microsoft Teams, Zoom and Slack, Ben and Scott compare the tools and discuss why people should stop pitting these tools against each other. This is not our sleepy Scott and Ben. This is our wide awake Scott and Ben. I don't know if that would be better or worse.

- Tell you what, it would be something.

- It would be something.

- Oh, so.

- Here we are, week 534 of staying at home.

- Of Isolation.

- I no longer know what day it is. I no longer know what month it is. It's just another day. I was thinking of "Groundhog Day." Remember the movie, "Groundhog Day?"

- Do I remember it? I've been watching it lately. Yes, it's an excellent movie.

- It is we're reliving "Groundhog Day". We just wake up and it's always today. It's never tomorrow.

- Yeah. If you're looking for another fun Bill Murray movie, in this time of isolation and sitting back and you've never seen it, you should go check out, "What about Bob?"

- What about, I remember "What about Bob?"

- "What about Bob?" is one of those classics that just holds up over time.

- You know what?

- So well. Baby steps.

- I need to go watch it again. It has been a long time. I think I only watched it once.

- It's time to get back in. And have you finished up, "Tiger King" yet?

- I have not started and I refuse to start.

- Oh, c'mon! Don't be that way. We can have a whole discussion about whether Carol actually killed her husband. What did Joe do? Oh man, we gotta get you into it.

- No, I have talked to people and everybody is like, it is absolutely terrible but I guess, then, I watched the whole thing cause I just had to see the train wreck.

- Yeah, you know we tried to stop after episode one but then you know they auto play so quick. I swear the vendor searches starting things quicker now. I've noticed on both Netflix and Prime, you're sitting there, Prime is really fast. Prime Video, it's three seconds and the next thing starts, the next episode, and you're going whoa, hold on! I didn't even have time to grab the remote, so yeah.

- That's funny. Yeah, it's funny that's what I keep hearing from people. They're like, I watched the first episode or I watched first episode and a half and it was so terrible I was gonna turn it off but I couldn't. Isn't that the epitome then, of a great, a great job by the writers or something? To create something that everybody thinks is so terrible they wanna stop watching it but they can't.

- Yeah, I will tell you. It was shot in an excellent way. The team that shot it and made the documentary, they're great at getting the shot. They have some of just shocking conversations with people. You don't even know how they got them on video to the point where you think it's a movie but then, you recognize that these people are just that dumb to say these things on camera. Or maybe they're that cerebral and that smart? I really don't know. Just some of the things, like you watch through the B-roll they have is great through the whole thing and they weave an excellent story. If you're looking to waste 5 hours of your life, it is there.

- There is always that. As IT professionals, in the cloud era, sometimes it feels like we don't speak the same language as the rest of the organization. So, when stakeholders from Finance or other departments start asking about a specific project or Teams Azure cost, they don't always realize how much work is involved in obtaining that information. Sifting through cluttered CSVs and a complex mess of metadata in order to manually custom views and reports. It's a real headache. On top of helping you understand and reduce your organizations overall Azure spend, ShareGate Overcast, let's you group resources into meaningful cost tops and map them to real world business scenarios. This way, you track costs in the way that makes most sense with your corporate structure whether it's by product, business unit, team or otherwise. It's a flexible, intuitive and business friendly way of tracking Azure infrastructure costs. And it's only available in ShareGate Overcast. Find out more on sharegate.com/ITpro. So, with a terrible segue, should we move from talking about video on Netflix and Amazon and all the fun video we've watched to video on meetings. And some of the discussion that's happened in the last couple of weeks around different web conferencing platforms, and I've may even pull some other platforms in here because it's been interesting. As everybody has gone and started working from home to see this whole, really a battle, is what I would call it between specifically Teams and between Zoom.

- Yeah, let's get in to it. I'm excited.

- And just some of interesting things too, you've noticed. You said you've noticed there's some Teams with edu. But I will say I had an update. So, transparency, I use Zoom every week. We use Zoom for the podcast. We're using it right now. And if anybody wants to join, our meeting code is, no, I'm not gonna do that. But I could.

- C'mon, you could though.

- I could though. Because I've installed a couple Zoom updates. Zoom has been throwing out updates daily, over the last week or so. I don't know when this update happened. Because in all fairness, we last used Zoom when we recorded six days ago. And I haven't started another Zoom meeting since then. But you used to click on our link for our podcast that would let you right in. You could do all of that. Today, you went to join and it said, you have to wait for Ben to start the meeting. And then, I started the meeting and you joined. And then, I got a pop up that you were waiting in the, I don't know, if they call it the lobby or whatever, you were waiting and I had to admit you.

- I did not make, I just thought your Zoom OPSEC was getting that much better and you were trying to annoy me, in all the wrong ways.

- Yes and I didn't. I have not updated. Well, I did update the meeting invite. It may have gone and pull out some different settings. But I did not update any settings or anything around our meeting. Other than, I did have to reschedule it cause we're recording on Thursday instead of Friday. And all of this stuff just got turned on by default for a pre-existing scheduled meeting. So, I am not doing any better at my Zoom OPSEC. Apparently, Zoom is and rightly or wrongly, they just went and enabled all of the stuff on my meetings that I already had scheduled. I had no idea. Who knew? So, one piece of advice, if you are using Zoom and you want some of these settings at the way they were originally, you may wanna go look at your settings. You may have to make some changes or people might not be able to get into your meeting until you get there.

- I think there's somethings like that. Yeah, they have just been pushing out all these updates and it's like every other day, I've seen an update to the Zoom client, locally. But there have been some good blogs other there from folks like Liam Cleary had a really good one: Still using Zooms for meetings; Wanna still keep using Zoom for meetings; here are somethings that you might wanna take a look at. Just to make sure that you are maybe positioned the right way and that you have setup some of this settings in a manner that actually puts you in a better place.

- Yeah and they did add a security tab at the bottom now, too. So, I have a separate tab now where I can just click security and I can go do it, go in and do things like enable that waiting room or lock the meeting and choose what I want to allow participants to do. So, there's some really nice updates that have come out of this. I think, getting on my soapbox for a minute, the part that bugged me about all of this, when all of this came out was, I'm not gonna call anybody out by name, there were some people that were non-Microsofties, there were some Microsoft people that I saw saying this is everybody all of a sudden jumped on, Zoom is terrible. Go use Teams because Zoom has horrible security. It was instilling this sense of fear in a bunch of people that used Zoom. Saying that it was terrible--

- Ah yes, the FUD.

- Right. Saying it was this terrible, insecure platform. Stop using it all together. And yes, there were obviously some security things that have come out of this. There's been some security things about the whole end-to-end encryption and where it's sending data. But at the end of the day, even before all of this, I have used Zoom for years. There were certain settings you can enable. You have always been able to password protect meetings. You've always been able to set different 10 digit invitation URLs. They've had those 10 digit URLs forever. There were ways you could protect it. And I genuinely was not worried about using Team or Zoom when all of this stuff start coming out. My daughter was using Zoom meetings for other stuff. I was like, you know what, I know the people running the meetings. I'm sitting here, I'm seeing the meetings, I'm seeing how they have it set-up. You could secure your meetings fairly well if you knew what you were doing, made the right settings, made the right adjustments. I will give them that, yes, it's not as secure as Teams. If you look at the URL to join a Teams meeting, it is significantly longer. There is more security around Teams. But at the end of the day, I felt like Zoom got a little bit of a bad rap from some people in terms of how terrible they were portraying the platform to be.

- Yeah, I think it's certainly a training thing and that tends to be something. Any new tool, any time you install the piece of software, if your first inclination is just to next, next, next your way into it, you're gonna be on the happy path or the easy path. And for stuff like Zoom, that's why Zoom is really popular. Cause it's super easy that the friction's not there.

- Yup.

- I could just give you a URL and you can join my meeting and I can record it on my end. Like, in the case of the podcast here, to get audio out of it. If we have guests on or things like that, it is super simple. Versus stuff like Teams, there's no such thing as just training someone on Teams. I could train you all day on Teams and you probably still won't know how to use it effectively within your organization or for the purpose. Like, you have to go through and do so much more, right? You even go and you look at Microsoft's training material for Teams, it doesn't start with how to use the Teams client, it starts with an entire adoption program.

- Right?

- Right.

- How do we drive organizational change to get everybody to use this tool in a fundamentally different way and change their business? Where Zoom is just, I wanna have a meeting.

- Right.

- Let's meet now.

- Yes.

- And that's where they excel. They do the meet now button better than the meet now button inside of Teams which just confuses everybody when like, oh my god this channel's having a meeting, what's going on?

- Right, exactly and I think you hit on the other thing that bugs me is, you mentioned the purpose of it. And that was the other aspect. Like, the Zoom meetings my daughter has been on, it's a non-profit, small organization, everybody that does it as volunteer, they don't have IT staff. They're not gonna go stand up Teams. Teams is so much more than what you said, a meet now. I wanna do a quick video meeting. I wanna do it once a month. I want all these girls to be able to get on and talk to each other and try to continue their normal face to face meetings, in person or as not in person but as close as they can by doing video. I don't need the collaboration. I don't need the document sharing. I don't need the planner. I don't need all these other, in this case, I don't need all these other baggage that comes with Teams just to do a meeting. I just want to do a video meeting. Zoom is amazing for that. Now, you wanna collaborate. You wanna pull in documents. You want a whole sweep of products where you can work together as an organization, oh and by the way, as a part of all of that functionality, you get to do meetings also, great. Teams is going to blow Zoom away. When it comes to, I need to collaborate with my co-workers and have all of this stuff in one spot. And that's the other part that gets to me is, these two tools, while they get compared a lot, have two very different purposes as their core underlying business vision, as their core underlying, this is what our business is about. Zoom is about meetings. Teams is about collaboration.

- Yeah, very much so. They are different tools for different jobs. And you'll lump them into that same category and it starts to muddy the waters pretty quickly.

- Yeah, so that's some of what's bugged me. It was and some of this came out of, have you seen, part of, started reading, "The Infinite Game" by Simon Sinek?

- I have not. Do I need to go read another and yet another book? Cause I've been reading a lot of books--

- You should.

- in my down--

- So, this was really interesting because in "The Infinite Game", he compared Microsoft and this is kinda taking a little bit of a tangent from this topic. But he talks about all these companies, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, big companies. But this relates to any company, and how all of these companies are in an infinite game. So, when you think of a game and this is gonna kinda give a little synopsis, a game has a defined starting point. It has rules. It has an ending point. And there is a pre-agreed upon condition for who the winner of is the game, right? You always know who wins the game.

- Unless it's global therma-nuclear war and war games but yes, I digress.

- Yes, unless it's that. In business, all of these companies talk about winning. We beat such and such company. Let's just go to the Teams example. Microsoft tries to say, we beat Zoom. We're gonna beat Zoom. Or Teams is saying we're gonna beat Slack. How does a company actually beat somebody? There's no rules for how you play. These companies can do whatever they want to. They tend to follow certain strategies but there's no defined rules of how you play the game of business. There's no defined ending point of when you finish the game of business. It is an infinite game. And as a company, all you're trying to do is to keep playing the game. You're not trying to beat anybody else. Your sole purpose in business is to not, is for your business not to close, to continue to play the game. So, this whole book is about how you shift that mindset from I'm gonna go beat whoever with my company to I just wanna keep playing the game. I wanna stay in business. I just wanna keep going and going and going. My mindset should not be about beating somebody. It should be about continuing to play.

- Gotcha! That all make sense.

- So, yeah. It's, it was a really interesting book in just how that switch in mindset can affect different companies and how some companies have done it better than others. And he does draw a lot of, I feel like everybody draws parallel but he draw some things from Apple, from Microsoft and some of his involvement from both of those companies. So, yeah. Outlook add-ins are a great way to improve productivity and save time in the work place. And Sperry Software has all the add-ins you'll ever need. The Save As PDF Add-In is a best seller and is great for project back ups, legal discovery and more. This add-in saves the email and attachments as pdf files. It's easy to download and easy to install. And Sperry Software's unparalleled customer service is always ready to help. Download a free trial at sperrysoftware.com, S-P-E-R-R-Y-S-O-F-T-W-A-R-E .com and see for yourself how great Save As PDF is. Listeners can get 20% off their order today by entering the code, CLOUDIT. That's CLOUDIT, C-L-O-U-D-IT. All one word at check out. Sperry Software work in email not on email. That was that. And this was my other soapbox item was I pull Slack into this too. Cause you keep hearing, so you keep hearing too that Teams wants to beat Slack, right? They keep, this is the new Slack. This is better than Slack. Our growth rate is better than Slack.

- So, let's throw that out there. And that is 100% pure marketing, right?

- It is.

- That is all that is. So, if you look at Slack from a functionality perspective versus like Teams, it becomes a nice place to put the comparison box up and say, well we do this and they don't do that. But they're fundamentally different things and they're on totally different scales.

- Right.

- You've got, four to five x the number of daily active users in Teams. Teams is built on this whole other platform with Azure and SharePoint and Exchange and all this stuff. I hate the Teams versus Slack comparison cause they are, like very much like, Teams and Zoom are not the same. Teams and Slack are not the same. The things that I do in Slack and the Slack communities that I'm part of, we get so much more done in Slack and I fundamentally believe we could not transition some of those conversations and processes and just the way those conversations naturally occur over to something like Teams without it having be just like an absolute poop show. Whether that's driven from like the UI. Don't get me started on how, have you ever met a person, let's talk about UI in Teams.

- Yup.

- Have you ever met somebody who's actually figured out the way to do a reply the right way in a thread? I've been using Teams for years and I still need to think about where I'm clicking. But if you're in the mobile client, it's all good and it just works. I can walk in, my wife's a teacher and so she's at home now and as they do remote learning. The school system she works for, they're using Teams for all their remote learning for their kids, right? That's really cool to see all that stuff used. I can go in and like look over her shoulder just as I walk to the kitchen and the threads are horrible, right? I mean, I work with a business of 20 people. It's the core company I work for and I dread going into Teams sometimes. Just cause I cringe every time I see somebody can't reply to something the right way. Right and that's just one thing that Teams does horribly that Slack does perfectly, right? Cause it's just a big stream of chats and everybody can figure it out. I never felt lost in Slack before they added threading.

- Yeah, no, I absolutely agree and I do the same thing. The threads and to be fair I do run across the same problem in Slack, is that sometimes I forget to start a thread and I just keep replying instead of starting threads. But for whatever reason, Teams is significantly harder. I do the same thing, where I go in and I reply and I'm like, oh that should have been a reply under that message, not, reply with a new chat instead of a reply. I don't even know how to describe the difference between the two. But that's been that other comparison is, I keep seeing Teams versus Zoom and Teams versus Slack. And they do, kinda like you said, they fall in the same boat for me. It's not comparing apples and apples when you're comparing either one of those.

- They are 100% different tools for different jobs.

- Yup.

- Right. I could see some organizations out there hopping into like Office 365 or M365 and never having to use Teams for chat. So, throw the security thing out the window and go back to ease of use and getting in there. They might just use Office 365 groups and planner. And then, they're all set. They're still chatting over in Slack or whatever they used to use before they came to Teams cause they don't wanna have to drag a user community with them kicking and screaming and bleeding from banging their head against the wall so hard for trying to figure out how we got there. And then, you've got like Slack adding functionality like join a Microsoft Teams call and doing things like that it's all over the place now.

- Right. And I totally get that. So, because I'm on a Mac, I had to suffer with Skpe for business whatever their client was. That was still 2011. The whole Skype for business thing has always been weird on a Mac until Teams came to fruition. So, I would say up until probably six or eight months ago, I was in that boat of, I do Office 365 for everything. Unless I have to have a meeting with you, in which case, we're gonna use Zoom because it works and it's easy and we're not gonna spend the first 15 minutes of our meeting banging our head against the wall trying to figure out why we can't hear each other, trying to figure out how to share screens. It was very much that use case. Because I'm solo, independent contractor, everybody that was coming to the meeting was external. Nobody was in my Teams client or I was using Skype which was horrendous on the Mac and Zoom worked and I needed something for meetings that worked. So, I was in that boat of, you know what, I'm using Office 365 and Skype. I have Teams they're great but they don't work. So, I'm gonna use Zoom. And same thing with Slack, I am in Slack and Teams daily. I'm probably a part of 15 different Slack groups. I'm a guest in 10 or 12 different Teams tenants. I use them all and it's based on the client's needs and where they are and based on the type of people that are in the group. And like you said, the interaction. Are we collaborating around projects? And are we using planner and SharePoint and all of those? And the chat in Teams is kinda that benefit. It's our core driver. Great, we use Teams. It works. There are definitely things that are fundamentally more confusing that are a little bit more of a challenge. But at the end of the day, when you look at all the requirements, Teams fits it best. Other ones, all we really need to do is chat. We don't care so much about files. We're not having regular meetings. It's a big group. I mean, one of the Slack groups I'm in is, I forgot how many people are in it, 20,000? 20,000 people in a Slack group that we never meet. Everybody just needs a place to chat, share ideas, talk. And for that, Slack is great. I cannot imagine having a Team with 20,000 people all from different organizations.

- I could bring you into some enamor communities. There's some messy ones--

- Well, but that brings enamor. So, are we gonna try some enamor in Teams now too?

- You know the other interesting thing or one of the things that I would say Slack does a lot better even in their free tiers, let's not get into the whole free versus paid and all that but Slack is arguably more stable when it comes to change. So, for example, one of the things I do in Slack, one of the groups I participate in is built around product and product feedback.

- Yup.

- So, simple things like monitoring an RSS feed for a Twitter search or heck, just native Twitter integrations for searching, for monitoring Twitter searches or for watching individual hashtags or even users things like that. That stuff is just rock solid. Those plugins don't really change. They just get better over time, right? All those integrations that you can add in?

- Yup.

- Versus something like Teams, same thing over in Teams, I would like to just monitor @ mentions back to my company that connector has changed two or three times in the last couple years. Every single time, it's gotten worse. And it's been deprecated to the point where they've even just taken it out on Teams and now they want you to use Flow to do everything or power automate with a Flow, rather--

- Don't get me started on that one.

- And the functionality is not the same, right? It continues to, the only constant with something like Teams is that it's always changing underneath you, right? So I can look at Zoom, back to how we started this conversation with. Okay, the settings changed for how you join a meeting but the fundamentals of how we perform the meeting did not change, right? Once we were in, it was still easy to get our audio going. We could still do the recording. It was all just right there and it was front and center. Slack does a big redesign but fundamentally the core things that you know about it to be true and that you've learned about it, are still true. Teams comes through and does a change and it's like, who moved my freaking cheese again?

- Yeah.

- It's just gone. And that stuff is like, that's the killer thing. And what drives you to, Teams is, you have to have this whole adoption program. It can't be just training. It needs to be more holistic versus these other tools that just do what they need to do.

- Yup.

- They don't have to be everything to everybody, right? Zoom does not need to be the best chat messaging platform across multiple meetings at the same time. All you have to do is click a link and go join a meeting

- Right.

- That's pretty easy. Slack, same kinda thing. Like yeah, you could do meetings and all that stuff in there but what do we need to do? We need to be a great organizational cross team chat platform. Can we do that? Yes, done.

- Yup, exactly. And then, going back to Teams, you have, we need enterprise collaboration, we need it to be secure. Cause that's the other thing, one thing Teams does really well is because it's in that whole ecosystem, you're data's gonna be secure. You can do DLP on chats. You can do the Microsoft information protection to protect sensitive content. Fundamentally, Teams is probably going to be more secure than any of the other platforms because that's Microsoft's target. They're targeting enterprise. They are targeting companies that may care more about security than they do ease of use. And users are maybe not gonna be able to do things quite as easily or again, they just need the integration. They need everything to tie together seamlessly without going in, installing all these integrations and going and buying five different products that you all cobble together to get work because everything is built right in, so--

- Well, don't get me started. I think Teams feels very cobbled together sometimes when you go to do things.

- So, there are some parts that does feel cobbled together. We're not talking about private channels here, Scott. Speaking of cobbled together

- In general, it's not clear right? You have to much. I mean, I sit there and I listen to my wife talking in the kitchen. I will leave the door to the office. Still, three weeks into this, they're still talking about, well, a student clicked on planner and what does that mean and how do they add a planner plan into this channel and what's going on? And what's happening, right? The issue I see with my wife's organization from a school perspective, they had to get in to these tools so quick that because it's not easy to use. They haven't gone through the adoption thing. They've barely gone through the training thing. Teachers are creating custom training videos for their students for how to do things and they don't know the native features of something. There was one this morning. A teacher wanted to call out, good job to a bunch of students in a particular class who had done their homework the night before. But they just did that in just a single post in a channel. They didn't @ mention anybody so the students will never see it because the teacher posted it at 6:00 a.m. By the time those students come in to school at 11:00 a.m. for their first conference, all the other chats are gonna have pushed that way up the screen.

- Right.

- Right.

- So, you get no notification and even if they had @ mention them, was that enough for the students. Potentially you gotta think about the kids there, right? How is a kid gonna react better? Are they gonna react better to seeing a red exclamation around a number when they login to Teams? Or would they react better if, when they click the exclamation, like oh, what's wrong? Maybe they saw something like a praise post with a nice big banner that says, here you go, you've done something nice. But if I never told you about @ mentions and the type ahead stuff, yeah, I know it's there but it's janky and it's been throttled and up, down, left, right as this whole thing kicks off so it barely works now. Not that it ever really worked before. You go ahead and combine something like that and you don't know that, hey praise is there or not even animated gifs or things like that but being able to do custom memes and all that. That would all be great stuff for kids and they just don't know that it's there. That's like one little feature, right? That could change a kid's day.

- Right, although to be fair, some of that exists in Slack too. Slack is the same thing. If you don't @ mention somebody they may never see it. You still need to know about the @ mentions and some of the plugins in Slack, some of those, the gif, they have the button right underneath the message. You click the button to do gifs. Where in Slack, you actually have to know to get one installed, the gif integration and then you have to know about the slash commands to do giphy or gif whatever it is, there's a few different ones there. So, I think some of it too at the fundamental level, well, some of the things are definitely a lot easier in one platform versus the other. At the end of the day, it still comes down to training. There were a lot of people who got thrown into a lot of stuff without just having adequate training any of it, regardless of the platform and what it is. Slack maybe easier to find stuff because it tends to be a little bit, it's not as enterprisey so I think the training tends to be a little bit simpler. It's easier to figure out how to do stuff by just googling it. Versus Teams you tend to dive into some of that enterprisey training type stuff. And not just the basic how to. I don't know, it's--

- Yeah. We'll see how it goes for some organizations, right? The Department of Ed in New York City just said, you have to stop using Zoom. So, they've been remote learning for a couple of weeks and they're two weeks into it. And then, okay now there's a new edict, you can't use Zoom. So, you've gotta go to either Google or Microsoft provided services. Like things, the district and county and education system are licensed for.

- Yeah.

- That'll all be very interesting.

- It will be.

- But let's come back and see what happened in New York City in three weeks for their schooling.

- Yeah, we can have this conversation all over again. I have started doing some videos though, Scott. I started, you saw some of them, on YouTube. I started doing short little Teams videos on how to do something in two minutes or less like @ mentions or group chats or some of that basic stuff cause I have found that people just don't always know how to do that and understand it. So, if you wanna go watch two minute YouTube videos, self promotion, I have two minute YouTube videos that I've been slowly trickling out there on how to do different things.

- Intelligink

- Yes, The Intelligink YouTube channel. We can link it in the show notes because we have the power to affect your show notes.

- Yup now, we just gotta teach you how to create a custom playlist for that. Oh, you do have one

- I do!

- Teams into, look at that, I found it all on my own.

- You could know how to use YouTube. Congratulations, Scott! I also have a Teams webinar out there that I did a week or so ago. I threw that out there, with a bunch of Q&A. That one is also more of the basic end user stuff. I need to do an admin one cause people have been asking for one. But so far, I've been doing the end user stuff. So, go check that out. That's all I have. I can get off my soapbox now. But end of the day, I'm just tired of seeing the comparison between some of those products because fundamentally, like we said, they have different purposes, different uses, something's are better at something than other things are. Use what works best for you based on your requirements.

- That's it! Really, that's what it boils down to. And recognize the tools and things like that. So, we already talked about Zoom has security issues and it's not really N10 encrypted and all that. Okay so, I'm not a top secret government organization. We're not dealing in rocket science secrets, here.

- Right.

- Like, do I really care?

- All right so my call got routed through China. Okay, what did I give up there?

- Yeah, did China really not know you were doing that already anyways? I mean, really.

- They heard us talk about you know Zoom, Teams and Slack, oh, no!

- Yes.

- So, you have to be cognizant of those kinds of things and yeah, all these stuff's a trade off, blah blah blah

- You know what, if they take down their firewall and let people listen to--

- It's okay.

- If they take down their firewall and let people listen to us in China, they'd be able to figure it all out without trying to hack Zoom. I don't think we have any downloads from China. I can't remember. I'll have to go look. I don't know. We can end with that, I got nothing else.

- All righty, well, let's do it then. I need more coffee, anyway.

- Yeah, I do too. I'm almost out. Go enjoy your week. Glad you're feeling better. You sound much better and we will talk to you the next week.

- All right, thanks Ben!

- If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave us a five star rating in iTunes. It helps to get the word out so more IT pros can learn about Office 365 and Azure. If you have any questions, you want us to address on this show or feedback about the show, feel free to reach out via our website, Twitter or Facebook. Thanks again for listening and have a great day.

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