- Welcome to Episode 173 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro podcast recorded live on April 9, 2020. This is a show about Microsoft 365 and Azure from the perspective of IT pros and end users, where we discuss a topic or recent news and how it relates to you. In this episode, with the recent uptake in usage of Microsoft Teams, Zoom and Slack, Ben and Scott compare the tools and discuss why people should stop pitting these tools against each other. This is not our sleepy Scott and Ben. This is our wide awake Scott and Ben. I don't know if that would be better or worse.

- Tell you what, it would be something.

- It would be something.

- Oh, so.

- Here we are, week 534 of staying at home.

- Of Isolation.

- I no longer know what day it is. I no longer know what month it is. It's just another day. I was thinking of "Groundhog Day." Remember the movie, "Groundhog Day?"

- Do I remember it? I've been watching it lately. Yes, it's an excellent movie.

- It is we're reliving "Groundhog Day". We just wake up and it's always today. It's never tomorrow.

- Yeah. If you're looking for another fun Bill Murray movie, in this time of isolation and sitting back and you've never seen it, you should go check out, "What about Bob?"

- What about, I remember "What about Bob?"

- "What about Bob?" is one of those classics that just holds up over time.

- You know what?

- So well. Baby steps.

- I need to go watch it again. It has been a long time. I think I only watched it once.

- It's time to get back in. And have you finished up, "Tiger King" yet?

- I have not started and I refuse to start.

- Oh, c'mon! Don't be that way. We can have a whole discussion about whether Carol actually killed her husband. What did Joe do? Oh man, we gotta get you into it.

- No, I have talked to people and everybody is like, it is absolutely terrible but I guess, then, I watched the whole thing cause I just had to see the train wreck.

- Yeah, you know we tried to stop after episode one but then you know they auto play so quick. I swear the vendor searches starting things quicker now. I've noticed on both Netflix and Prime, you're sitting there, Prime is really fast. Prime Video, it's three seconds and the next thing starts, the next episode, and you're going whoa, hold on! I didn't even have time to grab the remote, so yeah.

- That's funny. Yeah, it's funny that's what I keep hearing from people. They're like, I watched the first episode or I watched first episode and a half and it was so terrible I was gonna turn it off but I couldn't. Isn't that the epitome then, of a great, a great job by the writers or something? To create something that everybody thinks is so terrible they wanna stop watching it but they can't.

- Yeah, I will tell you. It was shot in an excellent way. The team that shot it and made the documentary, they're great at getting the shot. They have some of just shocking conversations with people. You don't even know how they got them on video to the point where you think it's a movie but then, you recognize that these people are just that dumb to say these things on camera. Or maybe they're that cerebral and that smart? I really don't know. Just some of the things, like you watch through the B-roll they have is great through the whole thing and they weave an excellent story. If you're looking to waste 5 hours of your life, it is there.

- There is always that. As IT professionals, in the cloud era, sometimes it feels like we don't speak the same language as the rest of the organization. So, when stakeholders from Finance or other departments start asking about a specific project or Teams Azure cost, they don't always realize how much work is involved in obtaining that information. Sifting through cluttered CSVs and a complex mess of metadata in order to manually custom views and reports. It's a real headache. On top of helping you understand and reduce your organizations overall Azure spend, ShareGate Overcast, let's you group resources into meaningful cost tops and map them to real world business scenarios. This way, you track costs in the way that makes most sense with your corporate structure whether it's by product, business unit, team or otherwise. It's a flexible, intuitive and business friendly way of tracking Azure infrastructure costs. And it's only available in ShareGate Overcast. Find out more on sharegate.com/ITpro. So, with a terrible segue, should we move from talking about video on Netflix and Amazon and all the fun video we've watched to video on meetings. And some of the discussion that's happened in the last couple of weeks around different web conferencing platforms, and I've may even pull some other platforms in here because it's been interesting. As everybody has gone and started working from home to see this whole, really a battle, is what I would call it between specifically Teams and between Zoom.

- Yeah, let's get in to it. I'm excited.

- And just some of interesting things too, you've noticed. You said you've noticed there's some Teams with edu. But I will say I had an update. So, transparency, I use Zoom every week. We use Zoom for the podcast. We're using it right now. And if anybody wants to join, our meeting code is, no, I'm not gonna do that. But I could.

- C'mon, you could though.

- I could though. Because I've installed a couple Zoom updates. Zoom has been throwing out updates daily, over the last week or so. I don't know when this update happened. Because in all fairness, we last used Zoom when we recorded six days ago. And I haven't started another Zoom meeting since then. But you used to click on our link for our podcast that would let you right in. You could do all of that. Today, you went to join and it said, you have to wait for Ben to start the meeting. And then, I started the meeting and you joined. And then, I got a pop up that you were waiting in the, I don't know, if they call it the lobby or whatever, you were waiting and I had to admit you.

- I did not make, I just thought your Zoom OPSEC was getting that much better and you were trying to annoy me, in all the wrong ways.

- Yes and I didn't. I have not updated. Well, I did update the meeting invite. It may have gone and pull out some different settings. But I did not update any settings or anything around our meeting. Other than, I did have to reschedule it cause we're recording on Thursday instead of Friday. And all of this stuff just got turned on by default for a pre-existing scheduled meeting. So, I am not doing any better at my Zoom OPSEC. Apparently, Zoom is and rightly or wrongly, they just went and enabled all of the stuff on my meetings that I already had scheduled. I had no idea. Who knew? So, one piece of advice, if you are using Zoom and you want some of these settings at the way they were originally, you may wanna go look at your settings. You may have to make some changes or people might not be able to get into your meeting until you get there.

- I think there's somethings like that. Yeah, they have just been pushing out all these updates and it's like every other day, I've seen an update to the Zoom client, locally. But there have been some good blogs other there from folks like Liam Cleary had a really good one: Still using Zooms for meetings; Wanna still keep using Zoom for meetings; here are somethings that you might wanna take a look at. Just to make sure that you are maybe positioned the right way and that you have setup some of this settings in a manner that actually puts you in a better place.

- Yeah and they did add a security tab at the bottom now, too. So, I have a separate tab now where I can just click security and I can go do it, go in and do things like enable that waiting room or lock the meeting and choose what I want to allow participants to do. So, there's some really nice updates that have come out of this. I think, getting on my soapbox for a minute, the part that bugged me about all of this, when all of this came out was, I'm not gonna call anybody out by name, there were some people that were non-Microsofties, there were some Microsoft people that I saw saying this is everybody all of a sudden jumped on, Zoom is terrible. Go use Teams because Zoom has horrible security. It was instilling this sense of fear in a bunch of people that used Zoom. Saying that it was terrible--

- Ah yes, the FUD.

- Right. Saying it was this terrible, insecure platform. Stop using it all together. And yes, there were obviously some security things that have come out of this. There's been some security things about the whole end-to-end encryption and where it's sending data. But at the end of the day, even before all of this, I have used Zoom for years. There were certain settings you can enable. You have always been able to password protect meetings. You've always been able to set different 10 digit invitation URLs. They've had those 10 digit URLs forever. There were ways you could protect it. And I genuinely was not worried about using Team or Zoom when all of this stuff start coming out. My daughter was using Zoom meetings for other stuff. I was like, you know what, I know the people running the meetings. I'm sitting here, I'm seeing the meetings, I'm seeing how they have it set-up. You could secure your meetings fairly well if you knew what you were doing, made the right settings, made the right adjustments. I will give them that, yes, it's not as secure as Teams. If you look at the URL to join a Teams meeting, it is significantly longer. There is more security around Teams. But at the end of the day, I felt like Zoom got a little bit of a bad rap from some people in terms of how terrible they were portraying the platform to be.

- Yeah, I think it's certainly a training thing and that tends to be something. Any new tool, any time you install the piece of software, if your first inclination is just to next, next, next your way into it, you're gonna be on the happy path or the easy path. And for stuff like Zoom, that's why Zoom is really popular. Cause it's super easy that the friction's not there.

- Yup.

- I could just give you a URL and you can join my meeting and I can record it on my end. Like, in the case of the podcast here, to get audio out of it. If we have guests on or things like that, it is super simple. Versus stuff like Teams, there's no such thing as just training someone on Teams. I could train you all day on Teams and you probably still won't know how to use it effectively within your organization or for the purpose. Like, you have to go through and do so much more, right? You even go and you look at Microsoft's training material for Teams, it doesn't start with how to use the Teams client, it starts with an entire adoption program.

- Right?

- Right.

- How do we drive organizational change to get everybody to use this tool in a fundamentally different way and change their business? Where Zoom is just, I wanna have a meeting.

- Right.

- Let's meet now.

- Yes.

- And that's where they excel. They do the meet now button better than the meet now button inside of Teams which just confuses everybody when like, oh my god this channel's having a meeting, what's going on?

- Right, exactly and I think you hit on the other thing that bugs me is, you mentioned the purpose of it. And that was the other aspect. Like, the Zoom meetings my daughter has been on, it's a non-profit, small organization, everybody that does it as volunteer, they don't have IT staff. They're not gonna go stand up Teams. Teams is so much more than what you said, a meet now. I wanna do a quick video meeting. I wanna do it once a month. I want all these girls to be able to get on and talk to each other and try to continue their normal face to face meetings, in person or as not in person but as close as they can by doing video. I don't need the collaboration. I don't need the document sharing. I don't need the planner. I don't need all these other, in this case, I don't need all these other baggage that comes with Teams just to do a meeting. I just want to do a video meeting. Zoom is amazing for that. Now, you wanna collaborate. You wanna pull in documents. You want a whole sweep of products where you can work together as an organization, oh and by the way, as a part of all of that functionality, you get to do meetings also, great. Teams is going to blow Zoom away. When it comes to, I need to collaborate with my co-workers and have all of this stuff in one spot. And that's the other part that gets to me is, these two tools, while they get compared a lot, have two very different purposes as their core underlying business vision, as their core underlying, this is what our business is about. Zoom is about meetings. Teams is about collaboration.

- Yeah, very much so. They are different tools for different jobs. And you'll lump them into that same category and it starts to muddy the waters pretty quickly.

- Yeah, so that's some of what's bugged me. It was and some of this came out of, have you seen, part of, started reading, "The Infinite Game" by Simon Sinek?

- I have not. Do I need to go read another and yet another book? Cause I've been reading a lot of books--

- You should.

- in my down--

- So, this was really interesting because in "The Infinite Game", he compared Microsoft and this is kinda taking a little bit of a tangent from this topic. But he talks about all these companies, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, big companies. But this relates to any company, and how all of these companies are in an infinite game. So, when you think of a game and this is gonna kinda give a little synopsis, a game has a defined starting point. It has rules. It has an ending point. And there is a pre-agreed upon condition for who the winner of is the game, right? You always know who wins the game.

- Unless it's global therma-nuclear war and war games but yes, I digress.

- Yes, unless it's that. In business, all of these companies talk about winning. We beat such and such company. Let's just go to the Teams example. Microsoft tries to say, we beat Zoom. We're gonna beat Zoom. Or Teams is saying we're gonna beat Slack. How does a company actually beat somebody? There's no rules for how you play. These companies can do whatever they want to. They tend to follow certain strategies but there's no defined rules of how you play the game of business. There's no defined ending point of when you finish the game of business. It is an infinite game. And as a company, all you're trying to do is to keep playing the game. You're not trying to beat anybody else. Your sole purpose in business is to not, is for your business not to close, to continue to play the game. So, this whole book is about how you shift that mindset from I'm gonna go beat whoever with my company to I just wanna keep playing the game. I wanna stay in business. I just wanna keep going and going and going. My mindset should not be about beating somebody. It should be about continuing to play.

- Gotcha! That all make sense.

- So, yeah. It's, it was a really interesting book in just how that switch in mindset can affect different companies and how some companies have done it better than others. And he does draw a lot of, I feel like everybody draws parallel but he draw some things from Apple, from Microsoft and some of his involvement from both of those companies. So, yeah. Outlook add-ins are a great way to improve productivity and save time in the work place. And Sperry Software has all the add-ins you'll ever need. The Save As PDF Add-In is a best seller and is great for project back ups, legal discovery and more. This add-in saves the email and attachments as pdf files. It's easy to download and easy to install. And Sperry Software's unparalleled customer service is always ready to help. Download a free trial at sperrysoftware.com, S-P-E-R-R-Y-S-O-F-T-W-A-R-E .com and see for yourself how great Save As PDF is. Listeners can get 20% off their order today by entering the code, CLOUDIT. That's CLOUDIT, C-L-O-U-D-IT. All one word at check out. Sperry Software work in email not on email. That was that. And this was my other soapbox item was I pull Slack into this too. Cause you keep hearing, so you keep hearing too that Teams wants to beat Slack, right? They keep, this is the new Slack. This is better than Slack. Our growth rate is better than Slack.

- So, let's throw that out there. And that is 100% pure marketing, right?

- It is.

- That is all that is. So, if you look at Slack from a functionality perspective versus like Teams, it becomes a nice place to put the comparison box up and say, well we do this and they don't do that. But they're fundamentally different things and they're on totally different scales.

- Right.

- You've got, four to five x the number of daily active users in Teams. Teams is built on this whole other platform with Azure and SharePoint and Exchange and all this stuff. I hate the Teams versus Slack comparison cause they are, like very much like, Teams and Zoom are not the same. Teams and Slack are not the same. The things that I do in Slack and the Slack communities that I'm part of, we get so much more done in Slack and I fundamentally believe we could not transition some of those conversations and processes and just the way those conversations naturally occur over to something like Teams without it having be just like an absolute poop show. Whether that's driven from like the UI. Don't get me started on how, have you ever met a person, let's talk about UI in Teams.

- Yup.

- Have you ever met somebody who's actually figured out the way to do a reply the right way in a thread? I've been using Teams for years and I still need to think about where I'm clicking. But if you're in the mobile client, it's all good and it just works. I can walk in, my wife's a teacher and so she's at home now and as they do remote learning. The school system she works for, they're using Teams for all their remote learning for their kids, right? That's really cool to see all that stuff used. I can go in and like look over her shoulder just as I walk to the kitchen and the threads are horrible, right? I mean, I work with a business of 20 people. It's the core company I work for and I dread going into Teams sometimes. Just cause I cringe every time I see somebody can't reply to something the right way. Right and that's just one thing that Teams does horribly that Slack does perfectly, right? Cause it's just a big stream of chats and everybody can figure it out. I never felt lost in Slack before they added threading.

- Yeah, no, I absolutely agree and I do the same thing. The threads and to be fair I do run across the same problem in Slack, is that sometimes I forget to start a thread and I just keep replying instead of starting threads. But for whatever reason, Teams is significantly harder. I do the same thing, where I go in and I reply and I'm like, oh that should have been a reply under that message, not, reply with a new chat instead of a reply. I don't even know how to describe the difference between the two. But that's been that other comparison is, I keep seeing Teams versus Zoom and Teams versus Slack. And they do, kinda like you said, they fall in the same boat for me. It's not comparing apples and apples when you're comparing either one of those.

- They are 100% different tools for different jobs.

- Yup.

- Right. I could see some organizations out there hopping into like Office 365 or M365 and never having to use Teams for chat. So, throw the security thing out the window and go back to ease of use and getting in there. They might just use Office 365 groups and planner. And then, they're all set. They're still chatting over in Slack or whatever they used to use before they came to Teams cause they don't wanna have to drag a user community with them kicking and screaming and bleeding from banging their head against the wall so hard for trying to figure out how we got there. And then, you've got like Slack adding functionality like join a Microsoft Teams call and doing things like that it's all over the place now.

- Right. And I totally get that. So, because I'm on a Mac, I had to suffer with Skpe for business whatever their client was. That was still 2011. The whole Skype for business thing has always been weird on a Mac until Teams came to fruition. So, I would say up until probably six or eight months ago, I was in that boat of, I do Office 365 for everything. Unless I have to have a meeting with you, in which case, we're gonna use Zoom because it works and it's easy and we're not gonna spend the first 15 minutes of our meeting banging our head against the wall trying to figure out why we can't hear each other, trying to figure out how to share screens. It was very much that use case. Because I'm solo, independent contractor, everybody that was coming to the meeting was external. Nobody was in my Teams client or I was using Skype which was horrendous on the Mac and Zoom worked and I needed something for meetings that worked. So, I was in that boat of, you know what, I'm using Office 365 and Skype. I have Teams they're great but they don't work. So, I'm gonna use Zoom. And same thing with Slack, I am in Slack and Teams daily. I'm probably a part of 15 different Slack groups. I'm a guest in 10 or 12 different Teams tenants. I use them all and it's based on the client's needs and where they are and based on the type of people that are in the group. And like you said, the interaction. Are we collaborating around projects? And are we using planner and SharePoint and all of those? And the chat in Teams is kinda that benefit. It's our core driver. Great, we use Teams. It works. There are definitely things that are fundamentally more confusing that are a little bit more of a challenge. But at the end of the day, when you look at all the requirements, Teams fits it best. Other ones, all we really need to do is chat. We don't care so much about files. We're not having regular meetings. It's a big group. I mean, one of the Slack groups I'm in is, I forgot how many people are in it, 20,000? 20,000 people in a Slack group that we never meet. Everybody just needs a place to chat, share ideas, talk. And for that, Slack is great. I cannot imagine having a Team with 20,000 people all from different organizations.

- I could bring you into some enamor communities. There's some messy ones--

- Well, but that brings enamor. So, are we gonna try some enamor in Teams now too?

- You know the other interesting thing or one of the things that I would say Slack does a lot better even in their free tiers, let's not get into the whole free versus paid and all that but Slack is arguably more stable when it comes to change. So, for example, one of the things I do in Slack, one of the groups I participate in is built around product and product feedback.

- Yup.

- So, simple things like monitoring an RSS feed for a Twitter search or heck, just native Twitter integrations for searching, for monitoring Twitter searches or for watching individual hashtags or even users things like that. That stuff is just rock solid. Those plugins don't really change. They just get better over time, right? All those integrations that you can add in?

- Yup.

- Versus something like Teams, same thing over in Teams, I would like to just monitor @ mentions back to my company that connector has changed two or three times in the last couple years. Every single time, it's gotten worse. And it's been deprecated to the point where they've even just taken it out on Teams and now they want you to use Flow to do everything or power automate with a Flow, rather--

- Don't get me started on that one.

- And the functionality is not the same, right? It continues to, the only constant with something like Teams is that it's always changing underneath you, right? So I can look at Zoom, back to how we started this conversation with. Okay, the settings changed for how you join a meeting but the fundamentals of how we perform the meeting did not change, right? Once we were in, it was still easy to get our audio going. We could still do the recording. It was all just right there and it was front and center. Slack does a big redesign but fundamentally the core things that you know about it to be true and that you've learned about it, are still true. Teams comes through and does a change and it's like, who moved my freaking cheese again?

- Yeah.

- It's just gone. And that stuff is like, that's the killer thing. And what drives you to, Teams is, you have to have this whole adoption program. It can't be just training. It needs to be more holistic versus these other tools that just do what they need to do.

- Yup.

- They don't have to be everything to everybody, right? Zoom does not need to be the best chat messaging platform across multiple meetings at the same time. All you have to do is click a link and go join a meeting

- Right.

- That's pretty easy. Slack, same kinda thing. Like yeah, you could do meetings and all that stuff in there but what do we need to do? We need to be a great organizational cross team chat platform. Can we do that? Yes, done.

- Yup, exactly. And then, going back to Teams, you have, we need enterprise collaboration, we need it to be secure. Cause that's the other thing, one thing Teams does really well is because it's in that whole ecosystem, you're data's gonna be secure. You can do DLP on chats. You can do the Microsoft information protection to protect sensitive content. Fundamentally, Teams is probably going to be more secure than any of the other platforms because that's Microsoft's target. They're targeting enterprise. They are targeting companies that may care more about security than they do ease of use. And users are maybe not gonna be able to do things quite as easily or again, they just need the integration. They need everything to tie together seamlessly without going in, installing all these integrations and going and buying five different products that you all cobble together to get work because everything is built right in, so--

- Well, don't get me started. I think Teams feels very cobbled together sometimes when you go to do things.

- So, there are some parts that does feel cobbled together. We're not talking about private channels here, Scott. Speaking of cobbled together

- In general, it's not clear right? You have to much. I mean, I sit there and I listen to my wife talking in the kitchen. I will leave the door to the office. Still, three weeks into this, they're still talking about, well, a student clicked on planner and what does that mean and how do they add a planner plan into this channel and what's going on? And what's happening, right? The issue I see with my wife's organization from a school perspective, they had to get in to these tools so quick that because it's not easy to use. They haven't gone through the adoption thing. They've barely gone through the training thing. Teachers are creating custom training videos for their students for how to do things and they don't know the native features of something. There was one this morning. A teacher wanted to call out, good job to a bunch of students in a particular class who had done their homework the night before. But they just did that in just a single post in a channel. They didn't @ mention anybody so the students will never see it because the teacher posted it at 6:00 a.m. By the time those students come in to school at 11:00 a.m. for their first conference, all the other chats are gonna have pushed that way up the screen.

- Right.

- Right.

- So, you get no notification and even if they had @ mention them, was that enough for the students. Potentially you gotta think about the kids there, right? How is a kid gonna react better? Are they gonna react better to seeing a red exclamation around a number when they login to Teams? Or would they react better if, when they click the exclamation, like oh, what's wrong? Maybe they saw something like a praise post with a nice big banner that says, here you go, you've done something nice. But if I never told you about @ mentions and the type ahead stuff, yeah, I know it's there but it's janky and it's been throttled and up, down, left, right as this whole thing kicks off so it barely works now. Not that it ever really worked before. You go ahead and combine something like that and you don't know that, hey praise is there or not even animated gifs or things like that but being able to do custom memes and all that. That would all be great stuff for kids and they just don't know that it's there. That's like one little feature, right? That could change a kid's day.

- Right, although to be fair, some of that exists in Slack too. Slack is the same thing. If you don't @ mention somebody they may never see it. You still need to know about the @ mentions and some of the plugins in Slack, some of those, the gif, they have the button right underneath the message. You click the button to do gifs. Where in Slack, you actually have to know to get one installed, the gif integration and then you have to know about the slash commands to do giphy or gif whatever it is, there's a few different ones there. So, I think some of it too at the fundamental level, well, some of the things are definitely a lot easier in one platform versus the other. At the end of the day, it still comes down to training. There were a lot of people who got thrown into a lot of stuff without just having adequate training any of it, regardless of the platform and what it is. Slack maybe easier to find stuff because it tends to be a little bit, it's not as enterprisey so I think the training tends to be a little bit simpler. It's easier to figure out how to do stuff by just googling it. Versus Teams you tend to dive into some of that enterprisey training type stuff. And not just the basic how to. I don't know, it's--

- Yeah. We'll see how it goes for some organizations, right? The Department of Ed in New York City just said, you have to stop using Zoom. So, they've been remote learning for a couple of weeks and they're two weeks into it. And then, okay now there's a new edict, you can't use Zoom. So, you've gotta go to either Google or Microsoft provided services. Like things, the district and county and education system are licensed for.

- Yeah.

- That'll all be very interesting.

- It will be.

- But let's come back and see what happened in New York City in three weeks for their schooling.

- Yeah, we can have this conversation all over again. I have started doing some videos though, Scott. I started, you saw some of them, on YouTube. I started doing short little Teams videos on how to do something in two minutes or less like @ mentions or group chats or some of that basic stuff cause I have found that people just don't always know how to do that and understand it. So, if you wanna go watch two minute YouTube videos, self promotion, I have two minute YouTube videos that I've been slowly trickling out there on how to do different things.

- Intelligink

- Yes, The Intelligink YouTube channel. We can link it in the show notes because we have the power to affect your show notes.

- Yup now, we just gotta teach you how to create a custom playlist for that. Oh, you do have one

- I do!

- Teams into, look at that, I found it all on my own.

- You could know how to use YouTube. Congratulations, Scott! I also have a Teams webinar out there that I did a week or so ago. I threw that out there, with a bunch of Q&A. That one is also more of the basic end user stuff. I need to do an admin one cause people have been asking for one. But so far, I've been doing the end user stuff. So, go check that out. That's all I have. I can get off my soapbox now. But end of the day, I'm just tired of seeing the comparison between some of those products because fundamentally, like we said, they have different purposes, different uses, something's are better at something than other things are. Use what works best for you based on your requirements.

- That's it! Really, that's what it boils down to. And recognize the tools and things like that. So, we already talked about Zoom has security issues and it's not really N10 encrypted and all that. Okay so, I'm not a top secret government organization. We're not dealing in rocket science secrets, here.

- Right.

- Like, do I really care?

- All right so my call got routed through China. Okay, what did I give up there?

- Yeah, did China really not know you were doing that already anyways? I mean, really.

- They heard us talk about you know Zoom, Teams and Slack, oh, no!

- Yes.

- So, you have to be cognizant of those kinds of things and yeah, all these stuff's a trade off, blah blah blah

- You know what, if they take down their firewall and let people listen to--

- It's okay.

- If they take down their firewall and let people listen to us in China, they'd be able to figure it all out without trying to hack Zoom. I don't think we have any downloads from China. I can't remember. I'll have to go look. I don't know. We can end with that, I got nothing else.

- All righty, well, let's do it then. I need more coffee, anyway.

- Yeah, I do too. I'm almost out. Go enjoy your week. Glad you're feeling better. You sound much better and we will talk to you the next week.

- All right, thanks Ben!

- If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave us a five star rating in iTunes. It helps to get the word out so more IT pros can learn about Office 365 and Azure. If you have any questions, you want us to address on this show or feedback about the show, feel free to reach out via our website, Twitter or Facebook. Thanks again for listening and have a great day.